"PROTESTANTS AREN'T PROPER CHRISTIANS," SAYS POPE BENEDICT XVI
Friday, January 20, 2012 at 4:29PM NOTRadio This article was written by Simon Caldwell
DailyMail, UK
July 11, 2007.
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.
Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.
Roman Catholic-Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.
As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".
Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.
The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.
The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.
At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.
Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.
He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.
Article source here.
Reader Comments (156)
Hey soldier and Dave,
Why don't you go do some more brilliant detective work. Hint: CAtholic.com, Catholicconvert.com. Maybe you will find that I am also a member of the KKK. I am sure you can justify making such a claim since bearing the command against false witness doesn't apply to you.
God bless
Does it have to be only one verse that says that true Christians believe that Scripture is the only faithful guide to salvation? Why is this? No essential doctrine that I can think of rests solely on one scripture. The Bible contains progressive revelation from God. The Bible interprets itself. These are two of a number of principles that need to be understood when discussing doctrines. Here are some scriptures that would apply to the discussion here: To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isaiah 8:20; Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them.' Luke 16:29; all of Psalm 119: here we are told that the word of the Lord is a guide, a law, a way of purity, preservation, teaching, illumination, spiritual food, counsel, spiritually life-giving, comfort, truth, freedom, direction, hope, source of knowledge and good judgment, righteous, eternal, trustworthy, more precious than jewels, etc. John chapter 1 on the Word made flesh (our Lord Jesus Christ) is very instructive. In John 5 Jesus Christ speaks of several testimonies about Who He is. these are : John the Baptist, Jesus Himself, His works, God, the word, and Moses himself. Since we must believe these testimonies to be saved, it follows that these testimonies are both true and salvific. Note then that the church and/or popes are not mentioned. Paul gives us a terrifying warning about the last days:
He (God) will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power on the day He comes to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8a
So Gerald are you denying that your a professional catholic agitator and a member of a secret order?
Have you been assigned to agitate Chris?
Could we even believe you is the question as the very nature of a Catholic/(Jesuit) agitator is to be misleading!!
on another topic:
If you are concerned about us poor protestant then please tell us how it is that we will be saved if we join the Catholic cult?
Is submission to the Pope a work I must preform to be saved in your cult?
If the Pope tells me to burn Bible believing Christians at the stake along with their KJV Bible must I follow his orders to be save?
on another topic:
Why is it that your Pope likes to ware idolatrous hats? such as his Saturn hat and Dagon fished head hats (Mitre)!!
KKK and the Capirote hat/hood: Is it not the case that your Cult invented the head dress of the Capirote and still to this day it is used by many catholic orders? such as the Nazarenos
http://www.google.ie/search?q=Nazarenos&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=TEYfT6PZDcOYhQfQmOzjDQ&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=809
on another topic:
Can a leopard change it's spots?
Good Soldier stated: "P.S.TarlsQtr, I love the Jerusalem Cross it really suits you. Your a big Crusader casting down heretics and protestants on the Catholic Answers forum aren't you."
Good soldier,
You do realize, I hope, that the Jerusalem Cross has nothing to do with "casting down heretics and protestants" (why did you say it twice?) ;-)
And if you knew even a smidgen of Church history, you would be grateful to those who fought under the flag or you would be reading a Koran instead of a bible.
As far as my membership to CA, so???? (Hint: You are committing a genetic logical fallacy).
Julie stated: "Does it have to be only one verse that says that true Christians believe that Scripture is the only faithful guide to salvation? Why is this? No essential doctrine that I can think of rests solely on one scripture."
Perhaps, not. But you would think that the foundation of your faith would have at least one pretty clear statement in scripture rathern than a few taken out of context.
Julie stated: "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isaiah 8:20;"
But what says that only scripture is the "Word" og God? John is pretty clear that Jesus said and did countless things that were not written down. Do they not qualify as His Word because they were not written?
Julie stated: "Luke 16:29; all of Psalm 119: here we are told that the word of the Lord is a guide, a law, a way of purity, preservation, teaching, illumination, spiritual food, counsel, spiritually life-giving, comfort, truth, freedom, direction, hope, source of knowledge and good judgment, righteous, eternal, trustworthy, more precious than jewels, etc."
Amen, but nowhere does it say that something Jesus spoke that was not put in scripture ceases to be the Word of God. Jesus Himself only wrote once, in the dirt, and we have no idea what he wrote.
However, there IS scripture that says it DOES NOT have to be in scripture. The most obvious is 2 Thess 2:15, where Paul says to teach them our traditions both oral and written. There are MANY others.
Good Soldier stated: "Why is it that your Pope likes to ware idolatrous hats? such as his Saturn hat and Dagon fished head hats (Mitre)!!"
You are a trip. You never answer anything, just making the same false witness time and again. The entire "if it resembles something pagan, you must be doing some type of pagan worship" is the most ridiculous argument ever made. Unfortunately, it is made time and again.
One question, do you or anyone in your ecclesial community wear a wedding ring? You do realize that it is a pagan custom, correct? Do you ever kneel when praying? You do realize that pagans did that as well, correct? You do realize that pagans had/have "scripture", correct? Does this mean that we should not because it was an idea that originated with pagans?
We do not adopt pagan items, we sanctify them. The wedding ring is a beautiful symbol of our covenant as a married couple with God. That pagans used the same symbol thousands of years ago is irrelevant.
Good soldier, Darlene, Dave, et al.,
I also have it from a good source that Gerald:
1) Bathes in the blood of Protestant babies
2) Hates puppies
3) Hates kittens even worse
4) Is an embedded Catholic spy in the 7th Day Adventist Church
5) Watches EWTN
6) Read a Scott Hahn book
7) Knows father Benedict Groeschel personally (Father Groeschel is a Franciscan but knows Jesuits PERSONALLY, hence here is your smoking gun for your connection between Gerald and the Jesuits)
8) Once went to a Father Guido Sarducci comedy show
9) Was once employed by the Vatican to find all ancient textbooks and tear out pages referring to the "underground" Baptist Church of the first few centuries AD in an attempt to conceal the fact that the RCC was not the Church started by Christ Himself.
10) Puts curses on all of you in the Pope's name
Discuss.
TarlsQtr said, "We do not adopt pagan items, we sanctify them."
That's interesting. Can you provide some scriptural support for that position? Thanks!
TarlsQtr
Have you ever taken this Oath?
I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola, in the pontification of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's Vice-Regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical Kings, Princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments, and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Churches of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding, I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they entrust me, and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever; but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centres of civilisation of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things, whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex nor condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infants' heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honour, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false, or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly be opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth, and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the Church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.
TarlsQtr,
You are correct that the wedding ring is a pagan symbol and that is why I don't have one and it is my belief that no Christian should partake in pagan practices.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Have you seen your current Pope kissing the last guys blood?
What sick idolatry and blasphemy against my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ "who is come in the flesh" (not in a Pope)
How do you excuse that type of Devil Worship?
Darlene,
Can you provide me with scriptural support that it MUST come ONLY from scripture? Thanks!
Good soldier, you did not answer that question completely, or my other ones at all.
Does anyone in your church wear a wedding band? (Would you mind telling me what ecclesial community you go to?)
Do you ever kneel while praying?
Why do you have scripture, when pagans had the same thing?
And if you are asking if I am a Jesuit, no, I am not. I go to a secular parish and my priest is secular.
Good soldier stated: "Have you seen your current Pope kissing the last guys blood?"
How that =worship is beyond me.
I have seen several different Protestants kiss or similar gestures of affection to a cross, a dead relative's picture, a dead relative's belonging like a treasured watch, a bible, and each other. In no cases did I assume they were worshipping the person/item, just showing great affection for them.
Actors Billy Bob Thornton and Angelina Jolie carried vials of blood around their necks for years. Strange? Possibly. But I doubt they thought the other was God.
I'll answer for Darlene
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Yes I do kneel when I'm praying.
Psa_95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
when it comes to a wedding ring I can only teach by example and I am not the Pastor so your argument is useless against me.
All I'll say is I'm not a protestant because to me that word is incorrectly used. I am not a Catholic in protest, I have no connection with your cult. I am a Good Soldier of Jesus Christ "who is come in the flesh" and I worship him in spirit and in truth.
You didn't answer my question: did you ever take the Oath above? Are you a Catholic/Jesuit Co-Agitator?
Good Soldier stated: "Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. "
Sorry, but not even the loosest possible interpretation of that verse can mean that ALL of God's Word is in scripture. Words are written, spoken, or both. You choose to ignore the words not written. John also says that Jesus said and did many things that are not written in the Gospels. Are those things less "His words" because they were not written?
Good Soldier stated: "Yes I do kneel when I'm praying.
Psa_95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. "
Thanks for the prooftext proving that there is no blanket condemnation of doing practices or using symbols that were at one time pagan. You are my best argument!
You stated: "when it comes to a wedding ring I can only teach by example and I am not the Pastor so your argument is useless against me. "
LOL By your own logic, you are wrong. Just the other day, IN THIS VERY THREAD, you professed the very UnChristian doctrine of "collective salvation" when you said that Gerald was guilty of the RCC's pedophilia scandal by ASSOCIATION with the Church. If he is guilty of that by "association", then you must be guilty of "worshipping" pagan idols by "association." Remember, you will be judged in the manner that you judge others.
Let's face it. You admitted right here that you go to a church that "worships idols" and has a pastor that does the same. Again, you are my best argument.
You stated: "I am a Good Soldier of Jesus Christ "who is come in the flesh" and I worship him in spirit and in truth."
You say, "in truth." A question for you, do your fellow congregants that wear wedding bands worship "in truth" as well? How can you both "have truth" when you believe different things? Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to lie to them and give you the truth or vice versa?
You stated: "You didn't answer my question: did you ever take the Oath above? Are you a Catholic/Jesuit Co-Agitator?"
I'll tell you what, answer my question (name and location of your church) and I will answer all of the above questions fully for you.
TalisQtr,
I got a good laugh from your post about me above. Man, I was really deceiving these people but now that what you posted is in the light of day i feel much better. ROFLOL. Thanks.
TarlsQtr said, "Can you provide me with scriptural support that it MUST come ONLY from scripture?"
Well.....in John 17:17, Jesus says, "Thy word is truth." So I cannot understand why one would need anything else to explain their beliefs. Unless one does not believe Scripture is truth, that is. If that were the case, one could use anything at all to justify their position.
So, are you able to answer my question? Where in Scripture can we find support for "sanctifying pagan things"? And exactly how is that process undertaken? How would you or I go about "sanctifying" something?
I keep thinking of the Scripture Isaiah 52:11, which is again repeated in 2 Corinthians 6:17. Those Scriptures tell us to not even touch something the Lord has declared is unclean. But I'm not aware of scripture that directs us to make something unclean, clean. ???? See my dilemma?
Thanks!
Sophistry, Sophistry!!
Now I've made you so angry telling you the truth you want to know were my Church is so you can send your demons to attack it.
Get thee behind me, Satan.
May the Lord Jesus Christ who is come in the flesh bless TarlsQtr with his Holy Spirit,
Open his eye's my Lord and show him the damnation and condemnation he is under,
Free him Lord from the chains of darkness the Devil has him in,
Give him a heart of flesh Lord and give him your peace and rest.
Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Amen
Darlene stated: "Well.....in John 17:17, Jesus says, "Thy word is truth." So I cannot understand why one would need anything else to explain their beliefs. Unless one does not believe Scripture is truth, that is. If that were the case, one could use anything at all to justify their position."
You would be much better off, Darlene, if you just came clean and said that you cannot provide a verse that says all of God's Word is found in scripture. You obviously cannot, which is ironic since you are admitting that sola scriptura is not in the Bible. Sola scriptura is a foundation built on sand.
To John 17;17, I say, Amen! Catholics, believe the Bible, the entire bible, not verses cherrypicked out of context to fit your theology rather than fitting your theology to the bible. His word "IS truth." The problem for you is that John also states Jesus said and did many things not written down. These are words uttered and miracles performed by OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST that you impugn because someone did not write them down decades later.
And, of course, keep in mind that the verse you cite was handed down orally for decades prior to it being written. When preached prior to being written, did the Christians of the time yell "sola scriptura!" or accept it as the Word even though it was not yet part of a Bible? Hmmm?
You stated: "So, are you able to answer my question? Where in Scripture can we find support for "sanctifying pagan things"? And exactly how is that process undertaken? How would you or I go about "sanctifying" something?"
I would love to answer your questions, but in the interest of fairness, my question was asked first and is still unanswered.
"I would love to answer your questions, but in the interest of fairness, my question was asked first and is still unanswered."
I'm sorry, TarlsQtr...which question did you first ask me that I did not answer?
Good Idol Worshipper stated: "Now I've made you so angry telling you the truth you want to know were my Church is so you can send your demons to attack it.
Get thee behind me, Satan."
Interesting, you ask gerald and me if we have pledged a specific Jesuit oath, yet you are reticent to provide even the name of your church. The RCC is very forthcoming with its beliefs, even publishing a catechism online for all to see, yet you will not open up your own church to inspection. Other than a theology of collective salvation and idol worship, what do you have to hide?
And for someone who claims to have such faith in Jesus and His words, your actions say otherwise. You obviously feel that you are part of His church but Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. Even if I could summon demons, do you not believe in Jesus's words of protection?
Another irony alert: On another thread, transubstantiation was called "hocus pocus" yet I am accused of having the power to send demons to attack your church. Geeesh! Do you people even think before you type?
Darlene,
Where does it say IN THE BIBLE that ALL of His word is IN THE BIBLE? In other words, where is sola scriptura IN THE BIBLE?
You base your arguments on a false premise. Why should we debate based on that?
TarlsQtr said, "You would be much better off, Darlene, if you just came clean and said that you cannot provide a verse that says all of God's Word is found in scripture. You obviously cannot, which is ironic since you are admitting that sola scriptura is not in the Bible. Sola scriptura is a foundation built on sand."
No, "sola scriptura" is not found in the Bible...just as "transubstaniation", "trinity", "pope", "Internet" and so forth are not there...you get my point and you know exactly how well that position holds water. :)
As for Scriptural support to seek Scriptural support...LOL....I always go to 2 Timothy 3:14-17. So, until another "document" claims to be "God-breathed" and can convince me that it is, I will stick with the Bible as being the only thing we have that can claim that. Everything else is "man-breathed" and I could do that myself. :)
So, again I ask...where in Scripture can we find support for "sanctifying pagan things"? And exactly how is that process undertaken? How would you or I go about "sanctifying" something?
That's just such an intriguing idea! Sounds very "mystical" to me.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Darlene stated: "As for Scriptural support to seek Scriptural support...LOL...."
That is funny. Unfortunately for you, the funny part is that I never asked for a verse that is "scriptural support to seek scriptural support." No educated Christian believes that scripture is not "good for teaching" or good support for one's beliefs. You are constructing a strawman.
What I DID ask was a verse that says ONLY scripture should be used. You have had no luck retrieving one yet.
You stated: "I always go to 2 Timothy 3:14-17. So, until another "document" claims to be "God-breathed" and can convince me that it is, I will stick with the Bible as being the only thing we have that can claim that. Everything else is "man-breathed" and I could do that myself. :)"
Amen. I agree with every word of 2 Timothy 3: 14-17. Again, the problem is that it does not say what you want it to say. A) It is referring to OT scripture and B) it does not say that all teachings must come directly from the bible. In fact, SCRIPTURE says the opposite. I notice that you have not addressed 2 Thess 2:15 which states: "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
By word of mouth? Did Paul not get your memo that it has to be IN The BIBLE to be the word of God? Would you have denied the teachings of Paul that were not written down?
And, how do you know what is "God breathed" scripture? Where in the NT is the canon of the NT listed?